tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post5908768329094142511..comments2023-09-20T12:50:40.208+01:00Comments on Pete Brown: My final post on beer stylesAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-80675498731855543352012-08-28T13:58:26.408+01:002012-08-28T13:58:26.408+01:00I just really enjoy the process. of discussion, a...I just really enjoy the process. of discussion, any ways i have just come across one beer blog regarding styles of beer, hope it help u people<br /><a href="http://ctfinebistro.com/blog/" rel="nofollow">http://ctfinebistro.com/blog/</a>Simon Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-60094411455531309762010-10-28T12:04:29.173+01:002010-10-28T12:04:29.173+01:00@Ron,
Good to see you in fine debating form. You&...@Ron,<br /><br />Good to see you in fine debating form. You'll be pleased that I agree with you.<br /><br />Detailed judging guidelines are ultimately an exercise in futility and your average craft beer drinker couldn't give a rat's ass about beer competitions.<br /><br />The point which I've been trying to make though, is that the two two most commonly encountered sets of style guidelines on the web (BJCP and BA) are designed to govern competitions. That is, they're deliberately excessively detailed, artificial and restrictive, whereas historical and commercial "style" categories generally are not.<br /><br />Taken as historical documents, they're as quaintly amusing as anything from a Victorian brewing journal, and are just as much a reflection of the era and culture that produced them. Likewise, they're just as much of a technical tool as a page from a 1920s brewery log.<br /><br />I think that we can agree that a huge problem with these sets of rules (let's not call them guidelines) is that they're so ubiquitous on the web, and seem so authoritative that they lead the ignorant astray. In extreme cases, you get idiots who try to apply them to every beer in the world; hence your "homebrew twats." That's just as stupid as applying the rules for Formula 1 race cars to an ordinary sedan!Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-59216400425756362652010-10-25T14:54:27.489+01:002010-10-25T14:54:27.489+01:00I really don't understand the way that a lot o...I really don't understand the way that a lot of the discussion tries to distinguish between creativity and styles. (And let me say right out front that I agree, it is stupid for the BA to have so many styles -- it seems designed for the sole purpose of handing out as many medals as possible.) <br /><br />Styles are not the rigid things that they are made out to be. Sure, some styles (often German ones) are narrower -- proper German style pilsners have certain characteristics, fall into a narrow gravity range, and so forth. But they are evolving things, and for most of us there is no rule to say we have to or even should brew rigidly to style.<br /><br />So why bother with the styles? Adrian Tierney-Jones was right to point to novels. I think painting is a better metaphor. There are certainly artistic styles that are recognized. Most artists want to make their own mark, and yet understanding the styles and how they evolved is important to most serious painters. Also note how even the innovators spend a lot of time mastering the tricks of different styles before they figure out how to make their own break from them. Picasso did a lot of copies of older masters. Rauchenberg and others have more recently done their own copies of Picasso!<br /><br />To take Pete's example in a different direction, cooking is similar. Maybe the average cook can do seven (or whatever) recipes. But if you are aiming to be a chef -- that is, make a mark with your own twist on cooking, for example in your own restaurant, then knowing the tricks of given cooking styles and flavors (which themselves emerge in different regions as a result of different climates, crops, and cultures) is important. Admitting that there is a recognized style of Southern Italian cooking (or Thai, or Gujarati or whatever) is not the same as saying that nothing new can be done.<br /><br />The point is, beer styles are a way to start a productive conversation with beer drinkers and brewers. It's hard to have a conversation without any common language or set of working concepts. No one has to brew "to style" but knowing some common points of reference is still a good thing.Joe Gerteisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-64905920845471493832010-10-24T16:22:10.239+01:002010-10-24T16:22:10.239+01:00Here's how I think it works. A homebrewer/cra...Here's how I think it works. A homebrewer/craft brewer enters his beer in competition. A comment results: "not true to style since this stout has a strong C-hop odour and stout traditionally had no hop aroma, much less an American one". The rejoinder: "But I like stout with a C-hop aroma and a lot of my friends/competitors do, so let's create an American Stout category so my product won't be misunderstood". <br /><br />And so on from there. Perfectly legitimate and the beer world does not consist only of normal drinkers but homebrewers who want commentary and publicity for their efforts and ditto for craft brewers, many of whom issue from the homebrewing community.<br /><br />Apart from that, many consumers want to know what a beer is like before they part with their money for it. The splitter (vs. lumper) approach assists that. I see nothing wrong with this, it is serving specific purposes and no more. In particular, the splitter effort is not one intended to analyse beer from a historical standpoint. It is a description of beer as perceived today for certain practical purposes only.<br /><br />Gary<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-36449100325522888652010-10-23T17:03:46.885+01:002010-10-23T17:03:46.885+01:00Thomas Barnes, I'm going to say this one last ...Thomas Barnes, I'm going to say this one last time: there have been beer competitions for more than 100 years that have coped with only fairly rough categories.<br /><br />What is this effing obsession with beer competitions? Normal drinkers couldn't give a toss about beer competitions. Constructing this huge edifice of beer styles just for competition is ridiculous and, when it comes down to it, utterly pointless and futile.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-54205411796875996312010-10-23T16:45:08.696+01:002010-10-23T16:45:08.696+01:00Ron, I should've made clear that for the Secre...Ron, I should've made clear that for the Secret Wine thing we had to identify the region, not just the country, of origin. Apologies, I probably confused matters by then going on about the US, New Zealand etc etc.<br /><br />Was just trying to make the point that French winemakers have to stick to rigid rules on grapes etc to get the AOC status (plus there's the local climate, soil etc), so you end up with very regional tasting wines. (Having said that, many wines are made in an international style so it's not always the case.)<br /><br />I've no doubt you can generally tell US and UK beers apart. But faced with a load of unlabelled British beers, I think it'd be much trickier working out which county each one came from - although I'd be willing to bow to your (much) superior knowledge on that if I'm wrong. Not saying it's a good or a bad thing, just saying it might mean marketers have to think a bit differently to attract new craft beer drinkers.Simon O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10944144832414040484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-675878899855861032010-10-23T08:14:25.345+01:002010-10-23T08:14:25.345+01:00Simon O'Hare, I strongly disagree. British bee...Simon O'Hare, I strongly disagree. British beers (or beers made with British are pretty easy to spot). As are American beers, or beers brewed with American hops in an American style.<br /><br />I've judged international competitions blind and found it a piece of piss to identify the American beers.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-55770182162410707272010-10-23T01:14:55.463+01:002010-10-23T01:14:55.463+01:00I believe that beer styles are useful for 3 reason...I believe that beer styles are useful for 3 reasons:<br /><br />1. To sort out categories in competition, both to keep judges from dying of sleep deprivation and alcohol poisoning and to give more brewers a shot at winning a medal. If the GABF and WBC didn't get thousands of entries, they wouldn't need 133 styles. (Also, to be fair, some of those 133 styles are "sub-styles.")<br /><br />2. To help beer drinkers know what to expect when they order a particular beer. Conversely, style guidelines help people in the trade quickly describe a new beer to potential buyers.<br /><br />3. To help classify the evolution of historical beer styles. Beer is a constantly evolving field and some beer geeks like to have their style guidelines to help sort things out.Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-89804744100308916442010-10-22T22:30:23.079+01:002010-10-22T22:30:23.079+01:00Funnily enough I recently had a conversation with ...Funnily enough I recently had a conversation with Tom (of Reet Good Leeds) that was kind of about this subject. We got talking about it because I took part in a 'Secret Wine' competition - I had to taste unlabelled wines and guess where they were from (unsuccessfully as it turned out!). As Tom said, you couldn't really run a similar competition for beer bloggers, because there isn't really the close association with origin and taste with beer as there is with wine. You couldn't taste a beer and go 'that's from Knaresborough' or wherever. (...Although some kind of blind tasting for beer bloggers could be good....?)<br /><br />Anyway I don't know where I'm going with this - apologies if I'm largely repeating what's already been said - other than to say beer and wine are just different.<br /><br />But perhaps the difference I mention does make beer more difficult to market. Whereas the consumer might in their mind have an idea of what a Rioja or a Burgundy tastes of, there isn't particularly a beer equivalent, because beer doesn't taste so much of where it comes from.<br /><br />Having said all that, as the craft beer market matures I reckon beer styles might increasingly be associated with the country they've come from. US pale ales are already a bit of a style category, I think? A bit like a beer equivalent of NZ sauvignon blanc.<br /><br />In fact it'll also be interesting to see how craft beer drinkers' tastes evolve as the craft beer market develops. Which fashionable beers of today will be the Blue Nuns of tomorrow?!<br /><br />Perhaps everyone will tire of a certain style of beer, much like wine drinkers became a bit tired of over-oaked Aussie chardonnays a few years ago... although I suppose that's a question for another post!Simon O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10944144832414040484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-87360566208207698602010-10-22T15:13:48.137+01:002010-10-22T15:13:48.137+01:00Dark, light, sessionable, strong, bitter, sweet.
...Dark, light, sessionable, strong, bitter, sweet. <br />Let the consumer learn what he/ she likes. Baffling people with bull is one of the main reasons that people are wary of moving from lager - we need to be enthusiastic about beer and sing its praises, rather than come across as geeky and elitist. Encourage rather than educate...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07682547318129281911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-58842047963938897642010-10-22T02:52:54.809+01:002010-10-22T02:52:54.809+01:00If you can find someone with intelligence and wit ...If you can find someone with intelligence and wit who can put forward a compelling or entertaining case for the recognition of a particular beer style, then it's a beer style. <br /><br />Everything else is static.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04158943109849313176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-48816012878619990002010-10-21T21:41:47.284+01:002010-10-21T21:41:47.284+01:00All very well said. I agree that 133 styles is too...All very well said. I agree that 133 styles is too many. Sub-styles of styles that are arbitrary to begin with are fairly absurd on top of that. However, I fail to see how they can possibly <i>hurt</i> anything or stifle creativity. They're intended as guidelines for judging, not brewing, and it's certainly helpful to have some sort of language to describe beer styles.Flagon of Alehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03961940368880824313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-90548919571999030712010-10-21T14:47:38.180+01:002010-10-21T14:47:38.180+01:00Any attempt at total clarity and consistency with ...Any attempt at total clarity and consistency with things like this is doomed. There just doesn't exist a universally acceptable set of beer styles which carves the beer world 'at its joints' and is still remotely useful.<br />The only way to deal with something as vague and nebulous as the world of beer styles is to stop being so precious about it and be pragmatic.<br />So long as brewers find a beer style useful and it gives someone familiar with the style a reasonable idea of the contents of the bottle, I'm cautiously OK with it.<br />As someone, like most on this forum, who spends a lot more time reading about and drinking craft beer than the average consumer, I find the proliferation of styles quite helpful. Even oft scorned styles such as Scotch ale and Black IPA.<br />If a beer is labelled as a scotch ale, I know it's going to be an American-inspired malt-forward beer along the lines of a barley wine, possibly containing peat malt (probably with lots of supurious references to Scotland on the bottle). <br />If a beer is labelled as a Black IPA, I know it is likely to be an extremely hoppy, dark beer but without (or, if present, more subdued) the chocolately or roasty flavours I would expect from a beer labelled 'Porter' or even 'Hoppy Porter'.<br /><br />For the average consumer, I think it's less about what styles are actually legitimate than about which ones brewer's use most obviously to market their beers and how they do it. Here, I think, consistency and simplicity is far more important and perhaps someone like Pete who is more savvy with the marketing stuff than most should come up with some guidelines which might be help brewers be as informative and simple as possible with their marketing and also to get some consistency between breweries.<br /><br />People order wine in a very different way than they order beer and seem, to a much greater extent, to order a wine without having any real clue what exactly it is.<br />Vast swathes of the population are perfectly happy to order a bottle of 'house white' without knowing or caring whether they get a Chardonnay, Sauvingnon Blanc, Pinot Grigio etc. <br />How many people would happily order a 'house pale beer' without knowing whether they'd get a Tennants lager, Stella, Deuchars IPA, Punk IPA or White Shield? None.<br /><br />The problem is that, to the uneducated palate, the difference between a given variety of white wines is likely to be less perceptible than the difference between a given variety of pale beers.<br />So whilst, for average, non-specialist wine drinkers, the easy categorisation into white, red and rose is (though obviously imperfect) pretty helpful; there is no such simple categorisation for beer.<br /><br />So, basically, we should be as liberal and pragmatic as possible with beer styles, so long as they are fairly informative.<br />On the other hand, we need a simple classification of beers which at least minimally informs people who want to ignore the fine-grained distinctions between beer styles which interest experts.<br />Sadly, it's never going to be as neat as pale, dark and sour or whatever but it should be as idiot-proof as possible and we shouldn't worry about sacrificing a fair amount of accuracy, so long as the average drinker isn't particularly going to notice/be offended by it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-31099513554216520122010-10-21T00:07:15.702+01:002010-10-21T00:07:15.702+01:00Thanks so much to everyone who has commented on th...Thanks so much to everyone who has commented on the two beer styles blog posts - possibly the most involved and intelligent discussion I've hosted in the history of this blog.<br /><br />But much as I love the hits and the attention, it only confirms my attention to steer well clear apart from this brief foray. <br /><br />Just glad I still have all my limbs.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-74130522820836665062010-10-20T23:26:51.293+01:002010-10-20T23:26:51.293+01:00To add a bit to what Andy's written, it's ...To add a bit to what Andy's written, it's worth understanding the context of the BA's 133 styles. (Decrying them is a regular theme of mine, and always great blog fodder.) <br /><br />We're in a little bubble here in the US. Most Americans still have no idea at all what beer is if it isn't served in a temperature-reading can. When we go to a neighboring country, exotic is Corona, which does very little to explode our sense of what "beer" is.<br /><br />So the BA, in trying to track all the styles, is in a sense doing taxonomic work for a culture bereft of beer. We lack any sense of what might create a style, its history, or native context. We are so focused on style because we have so little access to it.<br /><br />As our beer industry and culture matures, I expect this to all die down a bit. What you see now is the zeal of the converted.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-48062717558393787672010-10-20T21:38:07.014+01:002010-10-20T21:38:07.014+01:00I think firstly you have to decide who you're ...I think firstly you have to decide who you're trying to convey something to. So to average-pub-customer, a range of say 6 styles, but to american brewers 100+. For me personally it's enough for someone to describe a beer in relation to two styles so that I know roughly what to expect.Eddie86https://www.blogger.com/profile/03552007546467495543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-58931181420269387282010-10-20T21:04:24.392+01:002010-10-20T21:04:24.392+01:00Great discussion, but I'm damned if I'm ge...Great discussion, but I'm damned if I'm getting involved.ZakAveryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01794154105596597019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-23604386610177496522010-10-20T18:41:11.219+01:002010-10-20T18:41:11.219+01:00Bugger, too many comments, I wish I had time to re...Bugger, too many comments, I wish I had time to read them all, just in case I'm about to say something someone has said before. If so, I'm sorry.<br /><br />The parallel wine "styles" is really good, but flawed at the same time. Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Cabernet are actually kinds of grapes that can be turned into wine in several ways. With beer that's something completely different, beer styles are something rather artificial: this beer is a (insert name of style here) because the brewer has mixed certain types of grain, mashed them in a certain way and added certain type of hops according to a certain schedule, then the resulting wort was fermented with a certain strain of yeast at a certain temperature for a certain number of days, and after that, the beer was matured/conditioned for a certain period and under certain conditions.<br /><br />Wine, on the other hand, is far simpler. If a wine is the result of fermented grapes from the Rioja region that were picked in 2008, then it will be a Rioja 2008. Simple as that. And that's why wine has been so successful, the consumer gets the picture FAR easier than with beer styles, and on top of that, the whole winemaking process has a mystique that I doubt brewing will ever achieve among the average consumer.PivnĂ Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-73615923508486383962010-10-20T17:37:41.400+01:002010-10-20T17:37:41.400+01:00As an avid Anerican homebrewer since 1969 and an e...As an avid Anerican homebrewer since 1969 and an even more avid beer consumer I like the proliferation of style definitions. Here's why: As a homebrewer I can get an idea - just an idea mind you - what a particular kind of beer should be so I can think about whether I'm going to enjoy it and whether to make one of that sort. I don't take "style guidelines" too too seriously but don't ignore them either. In short, they are useful to my brewing endeavors, more useful than just a vaguely described 6 or 7 styles would be. As a consumer I encounter an enormous number of draft beer and bottled beer offerings said to be one of a plethora of styles, some rahter off the beaten path...Imperial Wit, Cascadian Black, Heller Bock...etc. Since I have some idea, usually, what this style is supposed to be I can decide if I want to buy one. Nor do I carry this approach to the extreme, for sometimes I think I won't like a style but know I like the brewers other work, so I'll give it a try; Sierra Nevada's recent release of Tumbler Brown Ale is an example. So here, too, I find the large number of styles useful to me in a way that a drastically reduced set of same would not be. How many do I need? Enough to help me navigate through the brews I want to drink and make.Jim Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-88901293884358570852010-10-20T17:15:47.654+01:002010-10-20T17:15:47.654+01:00Andy's comment does beg the observation of the...Andy's comment does beg the observation of the inherent circularity. We have the styles to have the judging... but why have the judging in this structure? <br /><br />More important elements of the judging from the consumer's point of view, such as relative value, are left out so why leave in "degree of truth to style" as an evaluator when it is ultimately largely irrelevant? Others, such as product stability, are in there but sort of dependent in the sense that an infection might be judged as true to style or not.<br /><br />One important reason for judging (and therefore a system such as style upon which judgement may be given) could be the demand of judges to be recognized and allowed to exercise their powers from time to time.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670495301758701170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-39680885559837382122010-10-20T16:41:52.377+01:002010-10-20T16:41:52.377+01:00Ron, thanks for that, I thought it was just a re-b...Ron, thanks for that, I thought it was just a re-branding. The beer ESB replaced was Old Burton Extra (see Wikipedia on Fuller's brewery). However, especially before the increase in the hop rate of ESB some years ago - I recall clearly reading this occurred - and still to a point, ESB reminds me of the strongish old country ales. It brings to mind Old Peculier or, say, Owd Roger, more than pale ale/bitter, for example. Perhaps it is a hybrid and indeed especially in America, it has always been recognized as a singular style of very high quality.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-73912684304992049282010-10-20T15:14:53.327+01:002010-10-20T15:14:53.327+01:00Recently in a Toronto bar, an American visitor req...Recently in a Toronto bar, an American visitor requested a "cloudy beer". The server, as so often the case, had no clue what he meant or even what the bar had, since Hoegaarden draft was available, yet she suggested a locally made lager, crystal-clear and as far from what he asked for as you could imagine. I twigged him to the Hoegaarden on the way out and he thanked me and said, "right, I meant a wheat beer". <br /><br />The consumer knows what he wants but cannot always articulate it. It's the job of beer writers, and brewers and their publicists, and bars who want to increase sales, to help put him (and her) right. To do that, a reasonable number of styles are needed but not too many since I believe this gentleman really would not have cared whether he was served a Belgian wit or a South German weizen (and anyway they are in the same tradition, just variants). <br /><br />On the other hand, Andy Crouch has explained very well why a more complex scheme is used by the BA. <br /><br />The two ways of looking at it can co-exist because they serve different purposes.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-44622052011000742772010-10-20T15:07:38.766+01:002010-10-20T15:07:38.766+01:00Spot on Allan!
The average drinker and even the a...Spot on Allan!<br /><br />The average drinker and even the average american beer geek has no idea what all the styles are. The brewers do, and they certainly use the system to their advantage. one of my favorites is the local St. Arndold Oktoberfest. It has 2-3 GABF medals. All in the catagory "Scotch Ale." Yum Yum.<br /><br />From a hombrewing perspecitve I think styles are important in the same way chefs going to culinary school all have to learn to make the same dishes in the "right" way their first term. If I can figure out how to make a beer taste like a "to style" Helles Lager or London Porter or Witbeer or whatever-then I can make anything I want. That is the use of style guidlines and focused competition to me. YMMV.<br /><br />@Pete-So whats the simplest way to "style" beers? For Wine I generally agree with Red-White-Rose, I would just add dry/off dry. And bubbles/still I guess.<br /><br />So- Basic beer flavor characteristics?<br />Malt-Roast-Hops. <br />Those are three decent "all encompasing" flavor descriptions. Anyone else have an idea?Ben Roncknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-71338855441644987782010-10-20T14:48:48.874+01:002010-10-20T14:48:48.874+01:00As for beer styles, I could only see four really d...As for beer styles, I could only see four really distinct styles of British beer. Five, if you include Lager.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-62271120495903551112010-10-20T14:47:43.359+01:002010-10-20T14:47:43.359+01:00Gary, ESB was a new beer that replaced their Burto...Gary, ESB was a new beer that replaced their Burton as a strong winter seasonal beer. The two beers have nothing in common and are in completely different styles.<br /><br />Maybe Fullers will brew one of their old recipes again sometime and you'll be able to see the difference.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.com