tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post1731842453271853880..comments2023-09-20T12:50:40.208+01:00Comments on Pete Brown: Beer styles: the first of only two posts I will ever write on the subjectAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-82214900031953521252010-10-20T14:50:11.222+01:002010-10-20T14:50:11.222+01:00Pete, that's how I interpreted it.Pete, that's how I interpreted it.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-80591866962282634072010-10-20T09:59:34.429+01:002010-10-20T09:59:34.429+01:00btw - and this is the biggest problem with online ...btw - and this is the biggest problem with online communication - my description of Ron Pattinson as a twisted genius was meant as nothing other than the warmest praise.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-59149306838067133732010-10-20T08:00:45.161+01:002010-10-20T08:00:45.161+01:00India Pale Ale, from the time at least when it ach...India Pale Ale, from the time at least when it achieved renown in India, was pale or light amber, well-attenuated (up to 80-90%), and decidedly bitter. 19th century books clearly state this and that the domestic versions were the same as the export save with less hops. I consider Greene King's and Charles Wells' versions (as exported to North America, they are 5% ABV or more from memory) excellent examples of the style. The variants you mentioned in hop type and strength are probably no different than what was available in Britain by 1870 because every brewer's beer had a different taste to a degree (as now), but the core nature of the style was, and is, still recognizable. Black IPA is a misnomer in my view and really represents something different to IPA. It is more a stout-type beer with a marked North American hopping.<br /><br />The above definition of IPA holds in my view after 150 years, and is enough to set it apart from mild ale (where the hop does not overlord) and porter and stout (where roasty quality is the key to the taste).<br /><br />From there, you can extrapolate endlessly and I have no problem with it since it facilitates judging and competitions. Beer culture in North America in its modern form came from that background and also from Michael Jackson's taxonomy in his early works. It's a fusion of those two influences and has always worked well here. <br /><br />We must remember too that many ardent brewers and beer fans need a frame of reference that does not rely on history for its essential insights; not everyone is interested in the history angle.<br /><br />At the end of the day, if I like it I like it and I'll be the first to say that I'd rather brewers make something that tastes right - whatever its classification - than worrying too much about any specific set of guidelines.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-8902849321403238682010-10-20T01:47:29.239+01:002010-10-20T01:47:29.239+01:00I thought Alastair's comment on the night abou...I thought Alastair's comment on the night about provenance was an interesting googly at the sticky wicket of beer styles. There is this notion that beer styles are a (what is that BJCP word? ) hybrid of provenance and description. Somehow the notion of provenance (which people interested in beer - be they marketers, writers or drinkers - are attracted to), with all that history, local tradition and romance, has got conflated with descriptions of beer. So a description such as "pale lager", gets merged with the history and tradition of beer brewing in Pilsen as a beer style called "Pilsener", while the same beer when merged with the history and tradition of beer brewing in Dortmund gets defined as a beer style called "Dortmunder", and when merged with Munich's brewing history gets called, yes, "Helles" (hang on - shouldn't that be München or something?). Anyway, so it goes on. And that's fine. We can say, yes, when a beer that is pale and lager-like gets brewed in Pilsen, there is a history and tradition there that is associated with that beer, and we recognise and acknowledge that history and tradition and call it pale lager from Pilsen or Pilsner. Fine and dandy. No problems. But what happens when a brewery in France or Britain or America decides to make a pale lager and call it Pilsner? The brewery is wishing to capture some of the romance and history - the provenance - that doesn't belong to them. I see no problem with them describing a beer for what it is - pale and lager-like. But I do have a problem with them taking (stealing? forging?) a provenance that is not theirs and they have not earned. Sure it's a marketing exercise that has been exploited since goods were first made, but it's not a marketing exercise that should be enshrined in guidelines telling people how to do it! The American Brewing Association and the BJCP and other places that provide instructions on how to forge Rolex watches (sorry, Bass beer) should be investigated by the Interpol Fraud Squad (IFS - is that a beer style?). Let's have a little less cloning, forging, copying or stealing of other brewers traditions and history, and a little more standing up and being proud of our own local traditions. Let's have some of that "London Lager" or "Kentish Ale" or "Yorkshire Bitter" - lets be proud of ourselves for beer's sake.Steve Pereira (SilkTork)http://www.facebook.com/stevechrissienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-10763729194496884672010-10-20T00:19:17.847+01:002010-10-20T00:19:17.847+01:00My problem with the definitions are they relegate ...My problem with the definitions are they relegate historically correct beers to the 'not to style' wastebin. That is just silly.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14256078606152011585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-29737659535868453562010-10-19T22:50:13.413+01:002010-10-19T22:50:13.413+01:00The recent proliferation of the so-called "Bl...The recent proliferation of the so-called "Black IPA" (or "Cascadian Dark Ale") speaks to the general confusion regarding beer styles today. How can a beer be simultaneously "Black" and "Pale"?<br /><br />Here's a <a href="http://aleheads.com/2010/09/13/a-new-approach-to-beer-styles/" rel="nofollow">rational approach to categorizing beer styles</a> that I think has some merit. It's not perfect by any means, but I like to think it's at least slightly more logical than the current system.<br /><br />Great post as always!Barley McHopshttp://aleheads.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-21293869975010779452010-10-19T21:17:09.638+01:002010-10-19T21:17:09.638+01:00Lots of great posts here. I understand how zelaous...Lots of great posts here. I understand how zelaous homebrewers could leave a sour taste in the mouths of Euopeans such as yourself and Ronald Pattinson. Something to consider, you "grew up" in a world with many types of beer, even if there were a lot fewer choices than there are today. Those of us from the US effectivley grew up with only one, BMC post-prohibition lager. <br /><br />Whether through hombrewing or the craft beer revoloution most beer geeks picked up one day and dropped into a "Sea of Choices" that they had to rationalize in some way. I will fully admit Americans have no sense of history, so Style Guidelines are a substitute. Des De Moor hits it right on the head when brining up film style conflict. Its the same thing. <br /><br />When folks discover good beer, for many it goes from beeing a drink to being a mark of distinction, or point of snobbery or just plain an obsession. I think thats where you get style geeks and hipster beer snobs. I assume tickers might be in there too, but as an american I dont know to much about those people. Eventually, hopefully beer just becomes a drink again. A wonderful, multidimenional gastronomical delight, to be sure, but a drink and not something else.Ben Roncknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-85653270038437547052010-10-19T14:59:16.350+01:002010-10-19T14:59:16.350+01:00Personally I'd like to see more hedonistic jud...Personally I'd like to see more hedonistic judging instead of so-called 'objective' tasting... Beer is supposed to be fun, after all. Style guidelines suck all the joy from it.<br /><br />A much larger problem is that many of my US compatriots first learned about craft beer THROUGH the style guidelines, either through homebrewing or sampling the wares at local, unimaginative brewpubs. They learn these styles and how they are supposed to be and think that they represent beer history. Worse still, many are never quite able to remove the style guidelines as a narrow, distorted, fetishized lens through which to view the wide world of beer.Joe Stangehttp://www.thirstypilgrim.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-88714335258919318342010-10-19T12:03:24.083+01:002010-10-19T12:03:24.083+01:00Totally agree with the post. As a homebrewer beer ...Totally agree with the post. As a homebrewer beer styles are useful to a point, but definitely the strictness that Beers comps give to being 'in style parameters' is counterproductive and probably stifles innovation in homebrewing circles (particularly in the US). At a guess there is probably only 5 or 6 types of beer, wouldn't it be refreshing if that was the case with the likes of the GABF?Mark (Halite)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13889456411151537055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-33180723069192303872010-10-19T11:58:50.556+01:002010-10-19T11:58:50.556+01:00couple of thoughts: you can go to far the otehr wa...couple of thoughts: you can go to far the otehr way though@ the other day I noticed Nigel Slater making a casserole and suggesting that you add a "Dark beer" to the dish. I half imagined he meant "dark" as in "dark comedy".<br /><br />Also think it's still worth highlighting the variety of beer styles as in the same edition (?) of the Observer Jay Rayner reviewed a new brew pub and blithely announced he didn't like beer ie. all 79 (and rising) different kinds of it.BLTPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06564846497205095201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-40199086957062430482010-10-19T11:32:45.888+01:002010-10-19T11:32:45.888+01:00Excellent! Not only because it is exactly what I&#...Excellent! Not only because it is exactly what I've beem thinking all this time, but also because you've give a great example there.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-46320079016996625052010-10-19T10:18:24.046+01:002010-10-19T10:18:24.046+01:00That's indeed one of the important points. I u...That's indeed one of the important points. I understand the idea of beer categories for competitions, to try and make sure you get to judge beers that can be compared together.<br />But trying to force that square peg into the round hole of beer reality is never going to work. because something influenced to that level by human elements is never going to fit in a systematic classification (the most laughable example being the infamous "Periodical table of beer" poster)<br /><br />In the tastings and courses I give now and again down here, I nowadays tend to insist more on beer denominations rather than styles. <br />Because, after all, what your average beer consumer needs is to have a vague idea of what the beer is likely to look and taste like when he or she reads "IPA" or "Stout" on the label. And to be aware that those terms, which often come together in "families" cover diverse, evolving realities.Laurent Moussonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381315158768575211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-72728387740067342772010-10-19T10:18:02.196+01:002010-10-19T10:18:02.196+01:00very entertaining post ... please don't be sil...very entertaining post ... please don't be silenced ... want to hear the second thingy...Publican Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04533484978463975994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-58756105857750234232010-10-19T09:56:41.993+01:002010-10-19T09:56:41.993+01:00Good post, Pete. Actually this year there were onl...Good post, Pete. Actually this year there were only (!) 79 recognised style categories at the GABF judging, but even so it does seem a bit daft. Style and genre are indispensable but contentious concepts in the appreciation of a wide range of subjects other than beer -- film criticism, for example, is always rumbling with genre controversies. The actual situation is dynamic and complex, and the landmarks shift in relation to new innovations, so trying to fix them in stone inevitably leads to problems.<br /><br />In the case of GABF I think some of it is driven by a desire to attempt to judge "objectively" in a world where individual taste and subjective appreciation are generally foremost. So they need benchmark styles. But those darn brewers will keep innovating -- and particularly in the US the innovations are coming thick and fast. The only way they can keep up, and avoid having to mark down self-evidently excellent beers because the brewer has pushed the syle envelope, is by constantly multiplying style categories.<br /><br />Shame I couldn't make it last night but I didn't want to spread a sore throat around the cream of British beer writing!Des de Moorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533475300522834830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-83160886556687976482010-10-19T09:56:05.639+01:002010-10-19T09:56:05.639+01:00I'm not sure that Ron is "twisted". ...I'm not sure that Ron is "twisted". There again...<br /><br />He does have the ability to upset people because he commits the cardinal sin of backing up his assertions with evidence from primary sources. The bastard! That's the sort of behaviour that gets historians a bad name. Oh, and he admits when he's wrong too.<br /><br />I particularly enjoy the made up beer styles. You know Robust porter/brown porter etc. There is someone out there sat in a back room thinking these things up.mentaldentalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226160741245530097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-22615597698830972582010-10-19T09:53:10.667+01:002010-10-19T09:53:10.667+01:00You left out an IPA. What about the post-WW II Whi...You left out an IPA. What about the post-WW II White Shield type?Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-5089609184175160692010-10-19T09:34:33.495+01:002010-10-19T09:34:33.495+01:00Is the other thing about the difference between po...Is the other thing about the difference between porter and stout? :P<br /><br />Great post, though Ron isn't always a twisted genius. He often starts out as a tiddly genuis and it goes from there.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.com