tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post2501374836709665815..comments2023-09-20T12:50:40.208+01:00Comments on Pete Brown: Getting paid.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-88658261442278438452014-01-05T11:12:18.832+00:002014-01-05T11:12:18.832+00:00As a sometime activist working with pub campaigner...As a sometime activist working with pub campaigners to save threatened local pubs, I have given my time and expertise in planning and heritage conservation matters freely (at the last count, about 3000 hours over three years*) to help out the impecunious doing it for love. After three years I have amassed a -frankly- unsurpassed expertise in this area. And now I expect to be paid for what I do. Rates for community groups are a fraction of my rates for commercial work, but even so, there are those who think that because they are doing it for free, so should I. There are even some commercial operations that see the £250k+ worth of pro bono work I've done for CAMRA means I should be prepared to work for them for nothing too, amazingly. Engaging a professional to do the job properly is to ensure that whatever is attempted stands the greatest chance of success. Otherwise, why bother in the first place? There are two campaigns in which I've been involved for two years or more where I continue to advise for nothing. Why? Because what they are doing has never been done before, and I value both the experience it gives me, and their faith in my ability to - in the works of Brewdog- 'walk tall and kick butt'. * I'd never seen Mark Twain's advice about three years and sawing wood but thankfully during those years several commercial operators have paid for my expertise on development projects so I shan't be scouring the small ads for jobs at the local sawmill any time soon. I won't, however, be taking on any new pro bono projects. Happy New Year Pete. Dale Ingram, heritage and planning consultant specialising in pubs and breweries. dale@planning4pubs.co.ukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-16833072048380553942013-10-30T08:43:42.865+00:002013-10-30T08:43:42.865+00:00I am nowhere near that interesting and I do not at...I am nowhere near that interesting and I do not attract this kind of of abuse... for now. But strangely this is another piece on wine writers remuneration that was published this morning: http://www.vinography.com/archives/2013/10/wine_writing_income_continues.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-34647508740467509772013-10-30T08:40:58.938+00:002013-10-30T08:40:58.938+00:00I'm nowhere near that interesting a writer and...I'm nowhere near that interesting a writer and nowhere near getting used and abused. But it's clearly across the board, see here: http://www.vinography.com/archives/2013/10/wine_writing_income_continues.html<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-35383605054197369272013-10-30T07:45:16.730+00:002013-10-30T07:45:16.730+00:00At certain times (e.g. when you have a book coming...At certain times (e.g. when you have a book coming out...) doing things for exposure might make a certain amount of sense: rather than seeing it as working for free, you might see it as getting free advertising. A fair exchange.<br /><br />Allowing your brains to be picked behind the scenes by someone who has never previously spoken to you, to whom you owe nothing, without payment and probably without even getting a hint of public acknowledgement... nope.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-63022128466796444062013-10-29T17:33:29.332+00:002013-10-29T17:33:29.332+00:00"Write without pay until somebody offers pay...."Write without pay until somebody offers pay. If nobody offers within three years, the candidate may look upon this circumstance with the most implicit confidence as the sign that sawing wood is what he was intended for." — Mark Twain.<br /><br />I totally agree that once you have your chops, payment is required. However, there is no way to get those chops, without writing for somebody for free. This is another angle why bloggers blog. A few hundred quality posts in, and you can reach out to a publication. On balance, you might get to write a weekly for a local newsletter, or else some type of free-content-driven site (like HuffPo). Even people who take journalism in school write tens of thousands of words for "free" (actually, they've probably incurred some debt to write them under a teacher's guidance), before they ask for a job with pay.<br /><br />All that said, it is totally offensive to be approached by a company *asking* for free work. Hey big company, you know why you know I exist? Because I matter, and my voice and skills are valuable. So pay up.<br /><br />Cheers, Pete. Great post.Chris Schryerhttp://www.torontobeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-40902366762353708742013-10-29T15:08:25.248+00:002013-10-29T15:08:25.248+00:00I don't come anywhere close to making a living...I don't come anywhere close to making a living at the whole writing thing, but I've got a few books out there and a few columns that bring in extra money that's very helpful. I still get asked to do things for free and it's always a case by case basis, but I take to heart some advice I was given years ago by <a href="http://lewbryson.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Lew Bryson</a>. When I was first starting out and before beer blogs were much of a thing, I asked for his advice and he said: "Don't write for free, when you do, you devalue what we do."<br /><br />Drew Beechumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10649711692296211606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-22318801840375192912013-10-29T13:58:48.633+00:002013-10-29T13:58:48.633+00:00If the person who is asking me to work for free is...If the person who is asking me to work for free is also working for free, and doing something that interests me, then fine. Otherwise, in the words of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas, fuck you, pay me.<br /><br />Knowing that the same agency has copied and pasted the same email multiple times is rude. If, as pyo says, you can't blame them for trying, then you can't blame anyone for reacting badly to it.<br /><br />I have more pressing things to do than carry out unpaid research for someone.Zak Averyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650929798289995172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-29871710827691257222013-10-29T12:57:57.456+00:002013-10-29T12:57:57.456+00:00"do nowt for nowt and if thee do, do it for t..."do nowt for nowt and if thee do, do it for thee sen"<br /><br />as someone older and richer than me once told me by way of advice.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-87831355777338098972013-10-29T12:32:21.020+00:002013-10-29T12:32:21.020+00:00A line to look out for is "do this one cheapl...A line to look out for is "do this one cheaply [or for free] and there'll be more work in the future." Run a mile.<br /><br />Btw, Phil Hensher used to prop up my bar. He used to drink Anchor's Liberty Ale.Jeff Pickthallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06343140031285101096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-86579655463309811252013-10-29T12:22:59.870+00:002013-10-29T12:22:59.870+00:00You can't blame people for trying it on. I bet...You can't blame people for trying it on. I bet they have found plenty of people who will give them info/opinions for free.pyonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-62659367053728293952013-10-29T10:57:31.397+00:002013-10-29T10:57:31.397+00:00PS. Jake, another comment that resonates here is H...PS. Jake, another comment that resonates here is Harlan Ellison's "Pay the writer" rant.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fEBryan the BeerVikinghttp://beerviking.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-11673825910159867742013-10-29T10:54:37.455+00:002013-10-29T10:54:37.455+00:00Hear hear! As a pro journo, I find it easy to turn...Hear hear! As a pro journo, I find it easy to turn down free gigs while still blogging the stuff I can't sell. <br /><br />From the Viking side though I can see how hard it is for amateurs to resist - we quite often get invitations to do film or TV work "for the exposure", and many people love that idea. One has to keep reminding them: "Is the cameraman working free 'for the exposure'? Is the director doing this for free?" If yes - and it does happen, albeit rarely - I'll consider helping out. <br /><br />As Neil says, if it (probably) leads to future work, then fine. But if all it gets you is a reputation for doing stuff for free (that someone else then makes a profit from), then perhaps not...Bryan the BeerVikinghttp://beerviking.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-48587769538044667582013-10-29T10:11:45.256+00:002013-10-29T10:11:45.256+00:00Some good points Pete. I think one of your opening...Some good points Pete. I think one of your opening points regarding being invited for a beer to 'pick-your-brains' is similar to somwething I did for a now well established beer bar.<br /><br />I met them for a few drinks, discussed beer, found out their ideas, gave suggestions. Obviously I didnt ask for paying. Then, down the line I actually ended up doing some copywriting for their new menus and even a bit of press release writing - which I was paid for.<br /><br />Sometimes it's that promise of future work which is enough of a carrot. But when the paid work never materialises, which happens more often than not, it can feel like you're giving away too much.Neil, eatingisntcheating.blogspot.comhttp://www.eatingisntcheating.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-60843854079430767472013-10-29T10:08:09.707+00:002013-10-29T10:08:09.707+00:00I couldn't agree more Pete; the fact that you&...I couldn't agree more Pete; the fact that you're being asked in the first place automatically assumes your views (and your subsequent copy) are of merit; from the Latin meritum - due reward. I write mainly for personal pleasure these days, but when I pitch an idea for publication it is on the understanding that money will exchange hands. How can it not? You don't take your car in for service and tell the mechanic that you won't be paying him but you'll certainly give him some favourable reviews.John Meddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10547777949324509522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30743480.post-47082661715624514062013-10-29T09:58:36.048+00:002013-10-29T09:58:36.048+00:00Good post. I know several photographers who face t...Good post. I know several photographers who face the same problems.<br /><br />Here's a piece of comedy that might resonate:<br />http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p2.html<br />(Warning: contains swearing, probably similar to the words that go around your own head when asked to produce work for free)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14026785388288092652noreply@blogger.com